The 2009 Legatum Prosperity Index just came out

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The Ludovico Treatment

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(10/29/09 18:53:57)

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Legend

1.Economic Fundamentals
2.Entrepreneurship & Innovation
3.Democratic Institutions
4.Education
5.Health
6.Safety & Security
7.Governance
8.Personal Freedom
9.Social Capital

Rank........................................1.......2.......3.......4.......5.......6.......7.......8.......9

1	Finland	10	9	9	3	7	2	2	7	6
2	Switzerland	2	13	1	22	3	6	3	11	2
3	Sweden	16	3	7	4	15	7	5	5	3
4	Denmark	15	6	12	2	12	4	1	2	13
5	Norway	18	17	8	1	10	1	7	1	10
6	Australia	7	15	5	6	21	14	10	4	4
7	Canada	6	4	6	16	22	9	9	3	9
8	Netherlands	3	5	19	14	8	15	8	10	8
9	United States	14	1	2	7	27	19	16	8	7
10	New Zealand	27	18	4	10	19	13	11	6	1
11	Ireland	5	12	13	18	2	5	12	25	12
12	United Kingdom	13	2	11	21	23	22	13	19	11
13	Belgium	4	20	3	11	5	16	15	9	26
14	Germany	23	8	21	19	6	21	17	17	19
15	Austria	12	19	10	13	1	10	14	36	23
16	Japan	8	7	20	20	9	12	20	22	40
17	France	17	14	14	15	14	23	18	15	48
18	Hong Kong	1	10	60	39	18	11	6	67	33
19	Spain	11	25	15	12	17	28	21	13	71
20	Slovenia	31	36	16	8	24	8	24	33	44
21	Italy	25	26	23	17	11	31	35	40	37
22	Portugal	28	31	22	29	20	17	25	26	64
23	Singapore	9	11	86	26	4	3	4	64	76
24	Taiwan	19	21	29	9	26	20	43	30	73
25	Czech Republic	20	27	25	31	16	29	28	23	74
26	South Korea	21	16	32	30	31	36	27	70	31
27=	Israel	22	23	17	25	25	74	26	41	78
27=	Hungary	26	22	26	23	30	30	29	48	92
29	Poland	33	35	24	27	32	25	32	45	68
30	Greece	42	43	40	5	13	32	30	65	51
31	Estonia	30	24	34	35	35	33	19	43	94
32	Costa Rica	55	33	28	61	37	44	38	12	47
33	Uruguay	67	53	35	43	28	26	31	14	60
34	Slovakia	35	30	18	36	36	34	33	69	69
35	Croatia	41	34	41	40	34	39	42	28	46
36	Chile	36	47	27	49	48	27	22	31	85
37	Latvia	32	32	31	24	38	38	34	76	99
38	Argentina	53	48	45	38	39	45	69	27	56
39	Malaysia	24	28	69	52	40	48	37	83	52
40	Trinidad and Tobago	48	58	43	73	49	54	52	18	34
41	Brazil	54	37	38	58	64	79	53	16	62
42	Panama	46	73	39	48	57	41	50	54	50
43	Mexico	34	29	61	60	51	72	51	73	45
44	Thailand	37	39	81	54	66	58	40	74	22
45	India	43	55	36	86	88	87	41	47	5
46	Bulgaria	40	45	30	37	43	46	45	81	101
47	United Arab Emirates	38	44	98	47	29	18	39	72	77
48	Romania	52	40	33	41	47	40	64	78	102
49	Jamaica	71	51	56	71	55	57	73	24	61
50	Mongolia	57	70	44	53	76	35	86	59	42
51	South Africa	58	46	47	69	82	96	47	50	30
52=	Kuwait	62	71	83	33	33	24	44	87	79
52=	Belize	74	49	50	79	61	61	55	58	58
54	Dominican Republic	85	90	59	76	77	77	62	21	20
55	Philippines	63	41	67	70	75	78	66	20	81
56	Botswana	56	92	37	80	95	68	23	32	29
57	Paraguay	87	67	65	74	65	50	76	29	53
58	Sri Lanka	81	82	71	77	72	97	59	39	17
59	Macedonia	86	68	42	57	41	55	63	71	88
60	El Salvador	73	74	68	83	69	71	58	35	59
61=	Indonesia	68	63	58	75	78	63	61	100	14
61=	Ukraine	60	59	55	32	67	69	92	68	89
63	Namibia	69	64	53	85	83	86	46	46	27
64	Peru	49	61	51	51	81	73	68	62	104
65	Colombia	61	57	70	62	63	104	49	44	75
66	Honduras	76	88	63	78	80	62	71	63	55
67	Guatemala	84	75	74	87	71	82	70	42	49
68	Tunisia	66	54	94	50	54	37	36	86	96
69=	Turkey	50	56	49	68	56	83	48	94	103
69=	Russia	39	42	85	28	46	99	85	88	84
71	Ecuador	78	72	77	65	58	89	87	61	65
72	Nicaragua	96	91	46	82	84	66	72	38	57
73	Bolivia	90	78	54	63	85	76	84	53	66
74	Venezuela	83	85	72	66	60	93	101	57	54
75	China	29	38	100	64	53	65	93	91	70
76	Kazakhstan	59	62	96	42	45	49	97	75	87
77	Vietnam	47	60	97	81	68	42	75	80	63
78	Moldova	82	52	57	45	79	75	89	85	93
79	Ghana	94	103	48	93	93	53	54	34	24
80	Jordan	64	77	84	46	59	47	57	103	83
81	Saudi Arabia	44	81	101	56	42	56	67	98	43
82	Mali	92	99	52	102	101	43	80	37	15
83	Morocco	51	50	82	84	73	59	65	90	91
84	Senegal	100	89	62	99	96	51	56	52	28
85	Belarus	45	76	102	34	44	52	98	89	98
86	Lebanon	75	66	80	44	52	90	79	99	90
87	Bangladesh	80	86	75	89	90	80	60	56	72
88	Egypt	72	65	90	55	50	64	91	95	100
89	Zambia	102	101	64	98	97	85	77	60	21
90	Nepal	91	93	89	91	86	91	94	77	18
91	Mozambique	95	98	73	104	100	60	78	49	38
92	Uzbekistan	89	87	104	72	62	67	96	82	80
93	Cambodia	65	102	88	96	98	70	82	51	67
94	Iran	79	69	93	59	70	88	102	101	82
95	Kenya	101	83	66	95	91	100	88	84	25
96	Algeria	77	95	87	67	74	95	83	97	95
97	Tanzania	97	100	76	100	102	84	74	66	41
98	Nigeria	99	94	78	94	92	98	99	92	16
99	Pakistan	70	79	79	101	87	101	81	104	36
100	Cameroon	88	96	95	92	99	94	103	79	35
101=	Central African Rep.	98	104	92	103	104	92	100	55	39
101=	Yemen	103	97	91	88	94	81	90	93	86
103	Sudan	93	80	103	97	89	103	95	96	32
104	Zimbabwe	104	84	99	90	103	102	104	102	97

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The Ludovico Treatment

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(10/29/09 19:07:37)

Venezuela received the lowest ranking of any country in the Americas.

WishYouWereDead

translation, please

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(10/29/09 21:09:09)

you will have to translate that... is this indicating that saudi arabia is low on the totem pole?... because my understanding was that they had much oil and few people... so, guatemala has a higher standard of prosperity than saudi arabia?... i doubt that...

Marcel Deste

Helpful additional Translation info for WishYWD

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(10/30/09 08:27:10)

WishYouWereDead wrote:
you will have to translate that... is this indicating that saudi arabia is low on the totem pole?... because my understanding was that they had much oil and few people... so, guatemala has a higher standard of prosperity than saudi arabia?... i doubt that...

http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=346398&CategoryId=10717

Caracas Residents Preparing for Water Rationing

Engineer Alejandro Hitcher, the president of Hidrocapital, the public entity that manages the water supply networks around the country, said in an interview with Efe that the water deficit is "about 25 percent" and he guaranteed that the cutbacks will last a "maximum of 48 hours."

He also said that "they will be rotating," or staggered, in different zones of the capital.

Hitcher said that, besides the lack of rainfall caused by the El Niño weather phenomenon, the situation is due to the "waste and frivolous use" of water by the richest sectors of society, and he added that the rationing measures are a chance to "foster a culture of responsible consumption."

[SEE BELOW]

The water rationing decreed by the government of President Hugo Chavez will begin on Nov. 2 and will be maintained until the beginning of May 2010, when the rainy season begins in Venezuela.

The leftist leader last week harshly attacked "half-hour showers" and said that three minutes in the shower "is more than enough" to maintain adequate daily hygiene.

In the poor Caracas neighborhood of Mariches, the lack of water is something with which residents are already familiar, since it has been more than three months that they've been waiting for the pipes needed to transport it to be installed. At present, the water arrives on cistern trucks that must enter the area via steep and unsafe narrow streets and alleyways.

"It's not easy to work as a cistern truck driver," Carlos Martos told Efe, relating stories of colleagues whose trucks were hijacked at gunpoint until local residents made off with all the precious water.

"We're dried out! We're not camels!" clamored residents upon the arrival of the first cistern truck.

BY PHIL GUNSON

Special to The Miami Herald

CARACAS -- Turn out the lights, shorten the shower to three minutes, buy a portable generator.

That is President Hugo Chávez's message to the citizens of energy-rich Venezuela, where the ``socialist revolution'' has brought power cuts, water shortages and collapsing public services.

In the past month, thousands of Venezuelans have taken to the streets to protest the lack of basic social services, from electricity to water. On Thursday, about 100 demonstrators turned out in Caracas calling for Chávez to solve the problem.

Some burned electricity bills while others simulated plugging electric devices into candles.

``We're accused of wasting electricity, but the fact is the government didn't plan, didn't invest and didn't carry out maintenance,'' Aixa Lopez, president of the Committee of Blackout Victims, told the TV news channel Globovisión.

Last Edited By: Marcel Deste 10/30/09 09:26:09. Edited 2 times.

westside progressive

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(11/02/09 04:08:03)

Legatum? Never heard of them, so I looked them up.Oh, Ok, they're a privately owned hedge fund!
http://www.legatum.com/

Well, that explains some of the weird findings. United States? #8 in personal freedom, when this country puts more people in prison per capita than any other? I think not! That's especially ridiculous when they rank famously tolerant Holland below the US. The country with the Patriot Act and the drug war is more free than the one where gays can marry, you can smoke a joint in a coffeshop, and nobody throws you in jail for consensual sex. Right. And #2 in democratic institutions??? What??? Are they talking about the United States that's located on planet earth??? The one where the supreme court overturns presidential elections? Where two capitalist parties have a stranglehold on the system and money rules the day? Nah, they can't be talking about that one!

Or maybe they can...

Truth be told, I was kind of suspicious when I saw "entrepenuership and innovation" as one whole subcategory. At that point I figured that this was basically a propaganda tool for global investment capital that measures countries on how good they are for... well, big global capital.

And if that's what's being measured, then it naturally follows that Venezuela comes out pretty low. I didn't delve too deeply (I didn't, because I don't have the capital to invest in a hedge fund), but I'm guessing the bias comes from both what they measure and how they're measuring it. Maybe their idea of personal freedom includes what bosses are "free" to do to workers, but they ways in which workers can fight back don't count as "personal freedom." Maybe their measure of "democratic institutions" is really a measure of how friendly those institutions are to capital. If you're a bigshot capitalist looking for your next exploitation target, maybe it's a useful index. But if you're a layperson, and you want some information about how well people live, I'd stick to a more authoritative source like the UN Human Development Index.
http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/

On that index, Venezuela came out at 58, one of only a handful of countries to move up 3 or more places since 2008. The overall quality of life doesn't compare to the United States of course (now at #13) -the abuse of 40 years of neoliberalism takes time to correct, especially if you insist on doing it democratically like Chavez is. But Venezuela is now among the best places to live in Latin America, considered to be "highly developed." I like to compare it to Colombia in particular, not only because Colombia is the last bastion of neoliberal capitalism in Latin America, but also because a decade ago, before Chavez and Uribe came onto the scene in the respective countries, the two were almost exactly equal on a lot of socio-economic measures. When their policies diverged, you can see the effects. As I indicated with ample evidence in a previous thread, Venezuela is galloping ahead in terms of advancing their quality of life on multiple measures, while Colombia languishes in misery. Overall, they were always closely bunched on the UNHDI, but now, as you can see Colombia is nearly 20 places behind. Now on the hedge fund scale, the country with 55-60% below the poverty line (Colombia) ranks above the one with 25-30% below the poverty line (Venezuela). You can start to see how ridiculous this is getting.

That said, one thing both indices- the authoritative and the hedge fund version -seem to agree on, is that the US lags behind a lot of European countries any way you measure it. For America, the richest country in the world -far richer per capita in terms of natural wealth and resources than tiny countries located on some pretty darn inhospitable land, to lag behind at #13 (or #9 if you want to use the fake index) is pretty shameful either way.

westside progressive

Less verbose response

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(11/02/09 04:10:50)

After I posted the above, I realize that there's a better, more succinct, response to "The 2009 Legatum Prosperity Index just came out":

Who cares.

The Ludovico Treatment

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(11/02/09 17:26:59)

westside progressive wrote:
After I posted the above, I realize that there's a better, more succinct, response to "The 2009 Legatum Prosperity Index just came out":

Who cares.

You don't care how your country stacks up against other countries? You don't care what things your country (and others) should be trying to improve?

I do. That's not to say I agree with this chart or its methodology. But, it does provide a could starting point for conversation.

I also find it odd that you don't think "entrepreneurship and innovation" should be a category used to help determine a nation's "prosperity".

westside progressive

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(11/03/09 02:54:07)

You don't care how your country stacks up against other countries? You don't care what things your country (and others) should be trying to improve?

I do. I just think the hedge fund-generated chart is crap.

I do. That's not to say I agree with this chart or its methodology.

Hey, we agree on something!

Marcel Deste

Westside needs electroshock therapy

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(11/03/09 09:12:57)

Sometimes education is the best antidote.

As in, liberals seem to be operating in the same manner as the baloon boys parents. Seeing a whole different explnation for things everyone else already understands, but still think they are right.

This takes several forms but the most popular are:

1. Ignore hard evidence. When hard facts obliterate your view, simply pretend they dont exist. And like the little kid covering his ears and singing to avoid hearing, liberals simply cover their eyes ears and brains and pretend the only facts that exist are the ones they conujure up, even if they arent facts at all but wishful thinking.

2. Change the meaning of words. Obama has patented the technique of calling bad, is good, good, is bad, up is down and down is up. So freedom is slavery and slavery to government is freedom. This helps alot to know because when they start calling things certain words all you have to do is realize the opposite is true. This enables you to understand all their arguments. When they say the Petossin Health Care Bill,..... er....I mean... the Pelosi health care bill will "save money" it means its going to bankrup you and the country.

With this key "Undertanding liberal argument" concept in mind you can make much more sense out of Westsides post.

WESTSIDE SAID :United States? #8 in personal freedom, when this country puts more people in prison per capita than any other?

EXPLANATION : Freedom of course allows people to fuck up. Then again, if you make crimes out of things like using an illegal plastic bag at safeway, hey, its criminal. Crime was notoriously low in the old Soviet Union because the Government committed virtually all the crime but never reported it which is why one of their leading brilliant minds considered the entire country a "GULAG". Other places with little of no crime. North KKorea and Singapore (famous for caning bubble gum droppers)

WESTSIDE SAID The country with the Patriot Act and the drug war is more free than the one where gays can marry, you can smoke a joint in a coffeshop, and nobody throws you in jail for consensual sex.

EXPLANATION: In places like California, 30% of the prison population is illegal aliens. So far the number of illegal mexicans is very low in Holland.

WESTSIDE SAID The one where the supreme court overturns presidential elections? Where two capitalist parties have a stranglehold on the system and money rules the day? Nah, they can't be talking about that one!

EXPLANATION: But they are. the one in which liberal judges throw out all kinds of elections especially the 20 or 30 that have all been for traditional marriage definition. And then there are those judges in Blue States that always seem to keep ruling for Democrats both not allowing ballots from conservative areas but allowing even totally fraudulent dead person votes from liberal areas until elections are reversed to give seats to liberals like Al Franken.

WESTSIDE SAID Truth be told, I was kind of suspicious when I saw "entrepenuership and innovation" as one whole subcategory. At that point I figured that this was basically a propaganda tool for global investment capital that measures countries on how good they are for... well, big global capital.

EXPLANATION: liberals think all jobs are the same. They think if the Government forced everyone in the whole country to work for the government that there would still be all kinds of money to be extracted from "the economy" to run government even though the "economy" wouldnt literally exist.

WESTSIDE SAID I'm guessing the bias comes from both what they measure and how they're measuring it.

EXPLANATION: Its encouraging when that small nugget of logic, lodged deep in the brain. somehow rights itself and kicks in even if only for an instant.

WESTSIDE SAID Maybe their idea of personal freedom includes what bosses are "free" to do to workers, but they ways in which workers can fight back don't count as "personal freedom."

EXPLANATION: Actually it means that when the boss is bad you can leave and the private sector offers another job you an get. Just for the record, which is different when "the boss" of everything is the STATE. See Venezuela where you are always working for Hugo.

WESTSIDE SAID : Maybe their measure of "democratic institutions" is really a measure of how friendly those institutions are to capital. If you're a bigshot capitalist looking for your next exploitation target, maybe it's a useful index.

EXPLANATION: This line is key to understanding the redefinition complex. You see liberals never think of the government as "greedy". When Hugo arbitrarily takes over the entire oil industry "in the name of the people", yet gives the people nothing except to say "the government took over the oil industry for 'the people'", and steals billions from private sector owners, its never called greed. And even when several other industries are all taken over by the same clique who then hand what used to belong to someone else to their cronies and family members, its never called greedy even when they move into literal mansions and destroy long held family farming operations and turn them into dust bowels.

WESTSIDE SAID But if you're a layperson, and you want some information about how well people live, I'd stick to a more authoritative source like the UN Human Development Index.

EXPLANATION:

WESTSIDE SAID especially if you insist on doing it democratically like Chavez is.

EXPLANATION:

nee nee nee nee

WESTSIDE SAID : But Venezuela is now among the best places to live in Latin America,

EXPLANATION:

Which is why anyone and everyone with a brain is leaving.

WESTSIDE SAID: considered to be "highly developed."

EXPLANATION: see picture above.

WESTSIDE SAID: I like to compare it to Colombia in particular, not only because Colombia is the last bastion of neoliberal capitalism in Latin America, but also because a decade ago, before Chavez and Uribe came onto the scene in the respective countries, the two were almost exactly equal on a lot of socio-economic measures. When their policies diverged, you can see the effects. As I indicated with ample evidence in a previous thread, Venezuela is galloping ahead in terms of advancing their quality of life on multiple measures, while Colombia languishes in misery. Overall, they were always closely bunched on the UNHDI, but now, as you can see Colombia is nearly 20 places behind. Now on the hedge fund scale, the country with 55-60% below the poverty line (Colombia) ranks above the one with 25-30% below the poverty line (Venezuela). You can start to see how ridiculous this is getting.

EXPLANATION: Columbia has had the Democrats in Congress refusing to apporove a trade deal for 3 1/2 years. Chavez has been conducting guerilla war against Columbia for over four years according to a good friend who is from Columbia where they HATE Chavez.

WESTSIDE SAID: That said, one thing both indices- the authoritative and the hedge fund version -seem to agree on, is that the US lags behind a lot of European countries any way you measure it.

EXPLANATION: We werent but Obama and the Democrats are working hard to make it that way. See unemployment. See "bubbles". See deficits as far as the eye can see that dwarf anything ever seen in the US economy. And they have only had one year to "accomplish" their goal.

WESTSIDE SAID: For America, the richest country in the world -far richer per capita in terms of natural wealth and resources than tiny countries located on some pretty darn inhospitable land, to lag behind at #13 (or #9 if you want to use the fake index) is pretty shameful either way.

EXPLANATION: OR, its a reality that defies the efforts to paint the US as "behind" the European economies who dont have to deal with the immigration issues that we have.

westside progressive

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(11/03/09 15:38:00)

1. Ignore hard evidence. When hard facts obliterate your view, simply pretend they dont exist. And like the little kid covering his ears and singing to avoid hearing, liberals simply cover their eyes ears and brains and pretend the only facts that exist are the ones they conujure up, even if they arent facts at all but wishful thinking.

Right... like ignoring data about per capita income, GINI Index, poverty rates, literacy rates, the whole damn UN Human Development Index... none of that matters 'cause you saw some picture of people pouring water into buckets somewhere.

2. Change the meaning of words. Obama has patented the technique of calling bad, is good, good, is bad, up is down and down is up. So freedom is slavery and slavery to government is freedom.

Like the PATRIOT Act. The PATRIOT Act, torture, indefinite detention and extraordinary rendition based on secret evidence, not to mention laws that tell people what to do with their bodies, what substances they can ingest, who they can have sex with and in what way... these are all examples of "freedom."

Other places with little of no crime. North KKorea and Singapore (famous for caning bubble gum droppers)

Actually North Korea is one of just a handful of countries that doesn't appear on world prison population statistics. For all we know they may be #1, though I actually doubt it. And Singapore is a particulary nasty capitalist country with a rather high incarceration rate (267/100K). But you don't have to go that far. I was thinking more along the lines of Canada... about 1/7 of our incarceration rate (116 per 100,000 people), and not exactly a "gulag."

In places like California, 30% of the prison population is illegal aliens. So far the number of illegal mexicans is very low in Holland.

This statement deserves a couple responses. First off, even if we stipulate your statistic to be true, and eliminate undocumented immigrants from the mix, we'd still be #2 or #3 in the world in terms of incarcerating our people. We might fall behind Russia (622/100K) , but we'd still be nowhere near the rest of the civilized world. Secondly, I noticed you suddenly substituted your usual "illegal aliens" for "illegal Mexicans." I presume that's because you're aware that Holland actually does have a lot of undocumented immigrants from all over the world. And yet still, they don't throw them all in jail (prison rate 100/100K). So maybe you think that it's not undocumented *immigrants* per se that are the problem, just undocumented Mexicans. If so, that's incredibly racist. If I asked you to explain why we incarcerate so many of our citizens, I have a feeling I'd know exactly what you'd say. But here's the rub, Marcel... even if I played ball on your racist turf (which makes me feel really dirty BTW), it still wouldn't account for what's going on in America. We incarcerate a whopping 760 per 100,000 people at any given time, so even if we narrowed down the prison rate to white citizens only, we'd still be way out of line with the rest of the civilized world! Now try explaining that one! Needless to say, there's something profoundly wrong with the sort of "freedom" we "enjoy" here in America.

And incidentally, at 85/100K, Venezuela has the 3rd lowest prison rate, not just in South America, but in the entire western hemisphere, putting right in line with Germany and Switzerland. The regime in neighboring Colombia incarcerates twice as many (163/100K).

And then there are those judges in Blue States that always seem to keep ruling for Democrats both not allowing ballots from conservative areas but allowing even totally fraudulent dead person votes from liberal areas until elections are reversed to give seats to liberals like Al Franken.

Such crap. That was the Minnesota Elections Commission, composed of 3 Rethugs and 2 Democrats, if you recall. If it's a Republican, all deference in the world is given to them. Hell, if you're the Republican candidate who's the son of a former president and head of the US espionage agency, you can just get the folks your daddy appointed to the Supreme Court to overturn the election even though you LOST by a half-million votes! Then next time the fraud doesn't have to be so messy, because you can install electronic voting machines throughout the country, all owned by Republican partisans, counted in secret under secret source codes. Oh sure, occasionally verbal slip-ups occur, like when the owner of Diebold said that he'd "deliver" Ohio to George W. Bush. Hey, when the guy whose machines count the votes says that he'll deliver votes, people had better listen. But no matter... worst comes to worst, if some guy like Mike Connell threatens to blow the lid on the whole operation, he might just conveniently die in a private plane accident the day before he testifies!!! Oh, gimme a break!

If someone like Al Franken somehow manages to pull off a win in spite of electronic voting, voter roll purging, voter intimidation, and then convince a Republican elections commission that he won, you better believe the evidence was more than rock solid. Still, we gotta run him through the ringer for six months -how dare some comedian run for Senate and actually win!

liberals think all jobs are the same.

I don't know about liberals, but I don't think all jobs are the same. I'll take a government job with benefits and rights over some low-wage, low-benefits, employed-at-will job working for the man any day.

Actually it means that when the boss is bad you can leave and the private sector offers another job you an get.

Not when there's 20% unemployment because the Republicans bankrupted the country with disasterous wars. Not when your healthcare is tied to your job. Now if you institute socialized medicine, then the economic freedom of workers to leave their jobs dramatically increases. Imagine the creative energy that would be unleashed if millions of workers could really change jobs for a career that actually suited them!

Just for the record, which is different when "the boss" of everything is the STATE. See Venezuela where you are always working for Hugo.

Shows how little you know about Venezuela. Venezuela is still a primarily capitalist country, with most people still employed in the private sector. The public sector is growing, as are private worker-owned cooperatives, but not as fast as some would like.

When Hugo arbitrarily takes over the entire oil industry "in the name of the people", yet gives the people nothing except to say "the government took over the oil industry for 'the people'", and steals billions from private sector owners, its never called greed.

Because it does belong to the people, and he's given the people a shitload from the profits that he's prevented from being stolen out of the country. See the movement in the UNHDI over the last ten years.

Columbia has had the Democrats in Congress refusing to apporove a trade deal for 3 1/2 years. Chavez has been conducting guerilla war against Columbia for over four years according to a good friend who is from Columbia where they HATE Chavez.

Well I have a good friend too, who sez that's a load of crap. There. We're even in the "good friends as sources" category. As for the Democrats, for once they did right. A trade deal would just prop up the Colombian dictator. Now if they could just pull out of those bases!

We werent but Obama and the Democrats are working hard to make it that way. See unemployment. See "bubbles". See deficits as far as the eye can see that dwarf anything ever seen in the US economy. And they have only had one year to "accomplish" their goal.

Meh. We've been lagging for some time now. Look at the long term. At the end of WWII, America probably had the highest standard of living in the world. Europe was in the shitter because it was totally ruined. But over 60 years, the European way has clearly proven superior, because their living standards have been gradually rising as ours have been gradually declining, at an accelerated pace since 1980. In any case, the 2009 index was based on pre-Obama numbers. Did Obama orchestrate the gradual decline of the US standard of living since he was in high school?

BTW... one thing that really annoys me... the name of the university in NYC is Columbia. The name of the country... is Colombia. I know this isn't a typo because I've seen you spell it that way every time. For someone who is so against immigrants, it really annoys this particular immigrant that you can't spell in your native language. "PIGEONS," Marcel. "PIGEONS."

Marcel Deste

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Member

Posts: 249

(11/04/09 09:05:42)

westside progressive wrote:
Right... like ignoring data about per capita income, GINI Index, poverty rates, literacy rates, the whole damn UN Human Development Index... none of that matters 'cause you saw some picture of people pouring water into buckets somewhere.

MARCELS RESPONSE- Dont be so clueless. The communist government couldnt fix a noisy toilet. The old russian joke lives in Venezuela. If you put the government in charge of the desert there would be a shortage of sand. All the numbers you mention all developed BEFORE Chavez began to turn the school system into a communist ideology indoctrination project. Check back in ten years if Hugo survives and those numbers will be right there neck and neck with the other failed communist educational systems everywhere.

Like the PATRIOT Act. The PATRIOT Act, torture, indefinite detention and extraordinary rendition based on secret evidence, not to mention laws that tell people what to do with their bodies, what substances they can ingest, who they can have sex with and in what way... these are all examples of "freedom."

MARCELS RESPONSE - Westsides hat trick mistake. Is it unfair to metion that your hero William the Impeached practiced everything you now call torture for 8 years to the collective dead silence of the democrats? Renditions only became "torture" when a Republican got elected. Its like the 30-40 dead marines since Obama started to dither over Afghanistan. Notice how all of a sudden "the President" is not to blame? And talk about telling people what to do with their bodies....that made sense until Obamas health care fiasco which virtually runs rampage over a womans right to choose. Not to mention the Kenyan Dictators Health Czar who wants forced abortions to save the planet. Your response to THAT reality?

Actually North Korea is one of just a handful of countries that doesn't appear on world prison population statistics. For all we know they may be #1, though I actually doubt it. And Singapore is a particulary nasty capitalist country with a rather high incarceration rate (267/100K). But you don't have to go that far. I was thinking more along the lines of Canada... about 1/7 of our incarceration rate (116 per 100,000 people), and not exactly a "gulag."

MARCELS RESPONSE- Canada doesnt have urban ghetto cores of blacks made disfunctional by liberal policies that destroyed their family structure or illegals. Japan doesnt have our problems either although the muslim population is growing in Canada so stay tuned.

This statement deserves a couple responses. First off, even if we stipulate your statistic to be true, and eliminate undocumented immigrants from the mix, we'd still be #2 or #3 in the world in terms of incarcerating our people. We might fall behind Russia (622/100K) , but we'd still be nowhere near the rest of the civilized world. Secondly, I noticed you suddenly substituted your usual "illegal aliens" for "illegal Mexicans." I presume that's because you're aware that Holland actually does have a lot of undocumented immigrants from all over the world. And yet still, they don't throw them all in jail (prison rate 100/100K). So maybe you think that it's not undocumented *immigrants* per se that are the problem, just undocumented Mexicans. If so, that's incredibly racist. If I asked you to explain why we incarcerate so many of our citizens, I have a feeling I'd know exactly what you'd say. But here's the rub, Marcel... even if I played ball on your racist turf (which makes me feel really dirty BTW), it still wouldn't account for what's going on in America. We incarcerate a whopping 760 per 100,000 people at any given time, so even if we narrowed down the prison rate to white citizens only, we'd still be way out of line with the rest of the civilized world! Now try explaining that one! Needless to say, there's something profoundly wrong with the sort of "freedom" we "enjoy" here in America.

And incidentally, at 85/100K, Venezuela has the 3rd lowest prison rate, not just in South America, but in the entire western hemisphere, putting right in line with Germany and Switzerland. The regime in neighboring Colombia incarcerates twice as many (163/100K).

MARCELS RESPONSE - first of all I wasnt aware you had any problem with racists because you voted for one. You know that guy who went to the Church of that noted bigot nut case Jeremiah Wright for 20 years, close friends with the busted Harvard prof who hates whites, and has lots of Black Panther Party Czars. Perhaps you consider the Black Panther Party "moderate". So be it.But save your lectures about racism until you actually prove you wont vote for one. That high handed claim of this being the post-racial presidency went under the bus when he hooked up Van Jones.

Where all your OTHER pontificating is just disconnected from reality is you somehow believe that some significant percentage of the people incarcerated didnt get a trial or every trial was rigged just because some guy is a person of color. That old Ted kennedy cause and effect nonsense is best lodged in the theory that blacks are slaughtering other blacks in huge numbers and mexicans are conducting war against blacks in LA because of whites. Meanwhile white on black crime is rare.

So in the typical liberal demonstration of un-logic just because people are caught, tried, and locked up, it somehow to you proves our whole society is not as good as places like Holland where mobs of muslim youth attack busses filled with white old ladies and none even get arrested because the cops are afraid to go into their rabbit hutches. same in France and same in England.

Such crap. That was the Minnesota Elections Commission, composed of 3 Rethugs and 2 Democrats, if you recall. If it's a Republican, all deference in the world is given to them. Hell, if you're the Republican candidate who's the son of a former president and head of the US espionage agency, you can just get the folks your daddy appointed to the Supreme Court to overturn the election even though you LOST by a half-million votes! Then next time the fraud doesn't have to be so messy, because you can install electronic voting machines throughout the country, all owned by Republican partisans, counted in secret under secret source codes. Oh sure, occasionally verbal slip-ups occur, like when the owner of Diebold said that he'd "deliver" Ohio to George W. Bush. Hey, when the guy whose machines count the votes says that he'll deliver votes, people had better listen. But no matter... worst comes to worst, if some guy like Mike Connell threatens to blow the lid on the whole operation, he might just conveniently die in a private plane accident the day before he testifies!!! Oh, gimme a break!

If someone like Al Franken somehow manages to pull off a win in spite of electronic voting, voter roll purging, voter intimidation, and then convince a Republican elections commission that he won, you better believe the evidence was more than rock solid. Still, we gotta run him through the ringer for six months -how dare some comedian run for Senate and actually win!

MARCELS RESPONSE - The Minnesota fraud is at this point even embarrassing to Democrats. And no one with a brain in Minnesota believes otherwise. And to show you how hard it is to blow every point you just made up...

ACORN, Soros Linked to Franken Vote Grab

Monday, December 22, 2008 9:22 PM

By: David A. Patten

http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/acorn_mark_ritchie/2008/12/22/164573.html

Minnesota Secretary of State Mark Ritchie, who orchestrated the recount that gave Democratic challenger Al Franken a lead some six weeks after incumbent GOP Sen. Norm Coleman appeared to win by 725 votes on Election Day, has extensive ties to both the ACORN organization now under federal investigation for vote fraud, and to MoveOn.org ultra-liberal kingmaker George Soros.

In 2006, ACORN endorsed Ritchie in his bid to become secretary of state, and Ritchie also received a campaign contribution that year from Soros.

Indeed, Ritchie has credited his own political career in large part to an obscure, Soros-funded group called the Secretary of State Project (SoS), whose express purpose is to seed state election bureaucracies nationwide with partisan activists -- Ritchie among them -- who are strategically positioned to influence the outcome of close recounts like the one now underway in Minnesota.
--- Before you say none of the info counts because of the source -ACORN is indicted in 16 states for vote fraud.

I don't know about liberals, but I don't think all jobs are the same. I'll take a government job with benefits and rights over some low-wage, low-benefits, employed-at-will job working for the man any day.

MARCELS RESPONSE- your comment simply says that you would prefer a government job. Fine. Look at this City's budget and its source of out of whackness. Then again, like I said, liberals when faced with incontrovertible evidence ignore the evidence and plug in their wishfull thinking.

Not when there's 20% unemployment because the Republicans bankrupted the country with disasterous wars. Not when your healthcare is tied to your job. Now if you institute socialized medicine, then the economic freedom of workers to leave their jobs dramatically increases. Imagine the creative energy that would be unleashed if millions of workers could really change jobs for a career that actually suited them!

MARCELS RESPONSE - Budgett deficit under Bush and the Republican congress 400 billion. Budget under Obama with Democrats controlling both houses of congress since 2006 1.7 TRILLION. The wonderful world you envision exists!!! Its called the Old Soviet Union.

Shows how little you know about Venezuela. Venezuela is still a primarily capitalist country, with most people still employed in the private sector. The public sector is growing, as are private worker-owned cooperatives, but not as fast as some would like.

MARCELS RESPONSE -"Venezuela is still primarily a capitalist country" - I dont even need to say anything with that obviously preposterous asserttion that Hugo himself would vehemently deny.

Because it does belong to the people, and he's given the people a shitload from the profits that he's prevented from being stolen out of the country. See the movement in the UNHDI over the last ten years.

MARCELS RESPONSE - As you cans ee from the water and power shortages and the takeovers in all media, execution of the leaders of other countries, and the new affiliation with maniacs like Ahdimenijad, and the people with brains fleeing the country the people LOVE their Dear Leader.
.

Well I have a good friend too, who sez that's a load of crap. There. We're even in the "good friends as sources" category. As for the Democrats, for once they did right. A trade deal would just prop up the Colombian dictator. Now if they could just pull out of those bases!

MARCELS RESPONSE - So Columbia is the Dictatorship. What did I say about how liberals changing the definition of words to mean their polar opposit?

Meh. We've been lagging for some time now. Look at the long term. At the end of WWII, America probably had the highest standard of living in the world. Europe was in the shitter because it was totally ruined. But over 60 years, the European way has clearly proven superior, because their living standards have been gradually rising as ours have been gradually declining, at an accelerated pace since 1980. In any case, the 2009 index was based on pre-Obama numbers. Did Obama orchestrate the gradual decline of the US standard of living since he was in high school?

MARCELS RESPONSE - Read Mark Steyns America Alone. Your dreamworld is just that and a growing number of Europeans are fast becoming aware of it.

BTW... one thing that really annoys me... the name of the university in NYC is Columbia. The name of the country... is Colombia. I know this isn't a typo because I've seen you spell it that way every time. For someone who is so against immigrants, it really annoys this particular immigrant that you can't spell in your native language. "PIGEONS," Marcel. "PIGEONS."

MARCELS RESPONSE - picky picky picky.

The Ludovico Treatment

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Posts: 979

(11/04/09 20:36:31)

WESTSIDE SAID: I like to compare it to Colombia in particular, not only because Colombia is the last bastion of neoliberal capitalism in Latin America, but also because a decade ago, before Chavez and Uribe came onto the scene in the respective countries, the two were almost exactly equal on a lot of socio-economic measures. When their policies diverged, you can see the effects. As I indicated with ample evidence in a previous thread, Venezuela is galloping ahead in terms of advancing their quality of life on multiple measures, while Colombia languishes in misery. Overall, they were always closely bunched on the UNHDI, but now, as you can see Colombia is nearly 20 places behind. Now on the hedge fund scale, the country with 55-60% below the poverty line (Colombia) ranks above the one with 25-30% below the poverty line (Venezuela). You can start to see how ridiculous this is getting.

I beg to differ. Colombia is beating Venezuela in the following ways:

#1 - Colombia is safer today than Venezuela, even though it was much more dangerous when Uribe came to power. The murder rate has dropped 45% during Uribe's tenure, while in Venezuela the murder rate has more than doubled since Chavez took power. The murder rate is roughly 50% higher in Venezuela than in Colombia today.

#2 - Colombia is freer today than Venezuela. Fewer politicians are getting killed, fewer journalists arrested and/or killed. Fewer media outlets closed.

#3 - Colombia has lower inflation than Venezuela. Colombia has dropped steadily and now stands at 3.21%. Venezuela stands at over 30% today and it has been trending up - again. If you earn a dollar and the next year its worth $0.70, that is not good for the poor.

#4 - Colombia's economic climate has improved more steadily and more diversely than Venezuela's.

westside progressive

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Member

Posts: 3048

(11/06/09 17:43:09)

MARCELS RESPONSE- Dont be so clueless. The communist government couldnt fix a noisy toilet. The old russian joke lives in Venezuela. If you put the government in charge of the desert there would be a shortage of sand. All the numbers you mention all developed BEFORE Chavez began to turn the school system into a communist ideology indoctrination project. Check back in ten years if Hugo survives and those numbers will be right there neck and neck with the other failed communist educational systems everywhere.

No, Marcel. The numbers I'm talking about are since Chavez was elected.

MARCELS RESPONSE- Canada doesnt have urban ghetto cores of blacks made disfunctional by liberal policies that destroyed their family structure or illegals. Japan doesnt have our problems either although the muslim population is growing in Canada so stay tuned.

I knew you'd blame it on the blacks before long! Your philosophy is pretty much the same as David Duke's, and the veneer is getting thinner every day. In any case, Canada has plenty of blacks, and America's incarceration rate for whites is also several times higher.

MARCELS RESPONSE - As you cans ee from the water and power shortages and the takeovers in all media, execution of the leaders of other countries, and the new affiliation with maniacs like Ahdimenijad, and the people with brains fleeing the country the people LOVE their Dear Leader.

Wait... which foreign leaders has Venezuela executed??? Are you OK, Marcel?

MARCELS RESPONSE - picky picky picky.

You're the one who made a big point of spelling "pigeons." I still have no clue what that particular rant was about, but if you really need to know, there's no "d" in pigeons.

westside progressive

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Member

Posts: 3049

(11/06/09 18:38:45)

#1 - Colombia is safer today than Venezuela, even though it was much more dangerous when Uribe came to power. The murder rate has dropped 45% during Uribe's tenure, while in Venezuela the murder rate has more than doubled since Chavez took power. The murder rate is roughly 50% higher in Venezuela than in Colombia today.

Without delving too deeply into the numbers and assuming they're true (without doing an extensive fact check), I would suspect the reason that Colombia's murder rate is down is because the drug cratels have mostly settled their earlier turf wars. Doesn't mean the cocaine isn't flowing any more. Just means they're not killing each other. They're just under new management to "better serve" their (US) customers.

Well... actually let me do a cursory fact check... hmmm... not exactly as you portray it. Going from 37 to 48 per 100,000 in Venezuela isn't exactly "double." More accurate would have been to say that the murder rate has stayed roughly the same. Yeah, crime is high and it's one of the things they could do better on. Also, 48 isn't exactly 50% higher than 36, Colombia's most recent rate. Suffice it to say that both countries have high rates of murder, though Colombia's has of course improved now that the Medellin and Cali cartels aren't battling it out on the streets anymore.

#2 - Colombia is freer today than Venezuela. Fewer politicians are getting killed, fewer journalists arrested and/or killed. Fewer media outlets closed.

How many politicians are getting killed in Venezuela?
As far as media outlets being "closed," few if any have actually been closed. They've mostly changed ownership, mostly from many outlets concentrated in the hands of a few private owners, to community ownership entirely separate from the government. What is happening is that the government is using entirely legal means to fight media concentration and diversify media ownership, with some degree of success. Not enough though. It used to be that 90% was opposition media, whereas last I read about 2/3 of media was in opposition hands. Clearly there's a lot of work to do before the media profile accurately reflects the population, but at least they're trying. Diversity of ownership and diversity of opinion is a good thing, and it makes the country more free, not less. Meanwhile in Colombia, media remains in private corporate hands, and of course Uribe has no interest in addressing issues of media concentration in his country, because the corporate-controlled media is mostly on his side.
The committee to protect journalists compiles statistics on journalists killed, and according to them, there was a grand total of one (1) journalist killed in Venezuela in 2009, and what isn't explicitly mentioned (but an article in Venezuelanalysis did), is that this was a pro-Chavez journalist. In Colombia, 2 journalists have been killed in 2009. Since Uribe took power in 2002, I count 23 journalists killed in Colombia. In the same time period in Venezuela, the number is 3 (including this last one).
You also don't mention labor leaders, conveniently, because labor leaders have been a favorite target of Uribe's right wing death squads. Even your article mentions that murders of labor leaders are increasing again.

You really should check your facts before posting, Lud.

#3 - Colombia has lower inflation than Venezuela. Colombia has dropped steadily and now stands at 3.21%. Venezuela stands at over 30% today and it has been trending up - again. If you earn a dollar and the next year its worth $0.70, that is not good for the poor.

...unless the incomes of the poor are growing at an even faster rate, which they are. Unlike in Colombia. BTW, if anything, Chavez has brought inflation under control in a country where it has historically been very high. Average inflation under the last 3 Venezuelan presidents: Perez 45.3%, Caldera 59.4%, Chavez 20.7%

#4 - Colombia's economic climate has improved more steadily and more diversely than Venezuela's.

This makes no sense at all, in light of the fact that Venezuela's per capita GDP is now 50% higher than Colombia's, whereas they were equal in 1999. At the same time, the poverty rate in Venezuela is down by half, while Colombia's remains at a miserably high 60%. This dovetails nicely with the fact that the GINI index in Venezuela is going down every year, while Colombia's is going up.

But again, this goes to the heart of the question, economic climate for whom? In Venezuela, the economic climate for everyone has improved, and those improvements have been felt by all sectors, but particularly the poor and working class. In Colombia, there has been far less improvement overall, and virtually all of it has gone to the very wealthy.

westside progressive

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Member

Posts: 3052

(11/07/09 07:43:40)

Great article on how Colombians come to Venezuela in droves, and why:
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/4913

Oh, and one thing they fail to mention is that many of these immigrants are, of course, undocumented. Instead of throwing them in jail, Chavez lets them stay and gives them access to social services.

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