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I want to thank Miltie for the excellent job he is doing of laying out the cost expense facts and arguments. I find also Westsides and DGs points as well very interesting. Especially Dgs because as far as how polar opposit DGIWP and I might be on the political spectrum, I agree with his arguments and views.

Its interesting to see both sids of the seeming argument laid out so well.

Miltie too. His logic is real. I couldnt agree more with exactly how he describes whats happening.

But I feel the points expressed refer to the micro. The macro picture is the true problem. How much does Government get. By any reconning, Government is too big and trying to do way too many things. And we were warned NOT to allow this to occur.

Its really a question of revenues or pie. Who makes them. Who becomes entitled to them after they are made. Just as our Constitution says. The left tends to view the wealth the economic system produces like some milk from the private sector cow. The private sector being the cows knows how hard it is to make all the milk. The left doesnt realize that the public sector yes does some even valuable services but it makes no profit. The entire expanse of government is an expense. No wealth is created only devoured. For whatever purpose the government does even saintly things. It doesnt ever make a dime. The left says we have this need, and that need, and these other needs and who cant agree helping there. But theres only so much milk the cow is able to make. The left thinks its milk supply unlimited no matter how little they allow the cow to eat or how much they beat it with ten sticks. What no handicapped ramp, to hell with your store pal. Bolt the door harry. They despise the very process of creation of wealth they feel is theirs and their discretion after its created.

Look at the bile directed at Don Fisher and why.

The beings they classify as the vilest humans on earth make millions of jobs happen by their pursuing being rich. The left doesnt realize where the ultimate goal of their ECONOMIC system is. The one they liike. Loaded with NGOs and regulatory controll authoritative bodies cranking out reems of new rules for every business to comply....or else. Liberal heaven. The burocracy. And their view is positively pschitzophrenic. Love the money to death, hate how its made.

So the literal ONLY restraint on this wish list fantasy milking is to put a specific limit on the pie they get alowed to cut up. I say peel off 25% of gross economic revs and let THEM fight over where it goes. If they want to spend it all on benes fine but they get no more to do the jobs. The needs would then limit the compensation remaining available. Right now they have OUR credit card in their posession and we really dont control what they do with it. Look at this Congress. There could be no greater p[roof pf what Ive just said.

Now my final comment has to do with the ballot. I loved it. Two positions with zero competition except a write in. Five props. They should do that no matter how important certain things are. They should ONLY allow a certain number. keep only important things on these ballots.

Miltie, Im trying to figure out what you sort of apologized for with respect to yours truly. Im out there obviously in my opinions. Any and every one can take their shots. In fact taking shots at what you post is all part of the deal. Not to mention even my spelling which stems from a mind quicker than my two fingers and my disdain for spell check function for which I really dont have much time left after I post my thoughts.

Clearly the disparity here is that of economic awareness. How the economy works. I watch Nancy Petossin in congress and its just amazing that a person so devoid of economic and real world intelligence has been given that much power. She is in fact a certiufied whack job. Then again all you need to do what she does is have no brains, ethics, or morals only ideology. She operates like Stalin did. Im not kidding. He didnt know economics either. Only power. You know if you cross her your going to get attacked and all bets are off on you, your family, your reputation and your career. Her singleminded pursuit of the economically disasterous Cap and Trade bill despite clear horrible economic impacts of it does in fact remind me of how the left has gone a long way toweards destroyoing the economic fabric of this City and the State.

But the proof of what I see as the solution, in light of the last paragraph is simply to force the left to live with what they impose.

They brag about increasing taxes "on the rich". yet everywhere you look these days from the Obama cabinet appointees to Charles Rangel D-TAXCHEAT-NY heading the tax writing committee to Ron Dellums. They have no problem raisng every one elses tax rates because they have no intention of paying them. Geithner cheated for YEARS even as he was given extra money just to pay the taxes. Hes now head of the IRS. They further know, as we see with the 26 Dems under ethics investigations that are being dragged out to non investigations by other Democrats heading the investigation, that they wont actually suffer the consequences if and when they are found out.

The Examiners headline yesterday about City employees using phony "city business" free parking placards. Between their free parking spaces and the measures the employ to evade the impact of their enhancements of the regs and laws says it all.

Another examiner story in the last week concerned the Muni taking millions in "stimulus money" (Republicans were criticized for calling it the Porkulus Bill, remember?) just to keep paying for operating costs ie benefits. And after those many millions are gone, then what? Not even an "Im sorry". Stories about last day promotions to increase retirement benefits for decades is stealing but not when done by Democrats. That stimulus money was supposed to go to "shovel ready" jobs Nancy Petossin said. The only thing that needs to be shoveled is the bullshit Nancy constantly evacuates.

As such if this administration both local and in DC well demonstrates is that the ONLY solution is to LIMIT the money they can get. period end of discussion. the battle should not be about evil and mean voters. the battle should be among themselves to wisely disseminate the fixed money they are given by the system. This is why all the bleating over PROP 13 is such malevolent baloney. One would think that government has been starved of revenues. There is ZERO evidence to support that. Look at the state budget. Its done nothing but grow grow grow endlessly. The numbers of state employees has grown endlessly also. Education gets 40% of the state budget gross revenues yet we hear that PROP 13 is starving education. SF has a BILLION dollar budget which is preposterous. Its the Public Sector Growth Stupid to quote that famous test tube baby james carville.

WishYouWereDead wrote:

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i'm sorry, but i'm not getting the "petossin" bit... is it supposed to be a play on "potemkin"?... i think it is supposed to be a communist reference, probably from the stalin era, but is there someone with a similar name whose name currently escapes me?...

and why is it that you think the pelosi dems are deliberately destroying america?... is it some kind of masochistic thing?... do they want to suffer - or just CAUSE suffering (maybe sadistic, rather than masochistic)?... or, can you actually conceive of the fact that they honestly believe that taxing the rich more fairly (hell, given their shelters, taxing them at ALL) might actually IMPROVE the lot of ordinary americans?...

in short, marcel, are the pelosi dems the spawn of satan, deliberately destroying america with full knowledge that what they are doing will bring on the apocalypse?

or are they just blunderers?...

i only ask because you often attribute to them some deliberateness, rather than incompetence...

Petocin is the drug they give women to induce forced labor. Which is what Nancy is doing to the entire congress.

As for the serious question Im presuming you asked. You tell me. Recall Nixon. he was either incredibly stupid or criminal.

There is not one thing Obama has pushed for that is anything other than part of a plan long ago outlined very clearly to destroy the economy and society of the United States of America. Im talking Communist Party 1930. Let that sink in please. The goals as outlined by the Communist government to its KGB and their American usefull idiots (as they called them) acting on their behalf in this country is incluided virtually the entire platform of the modern Democrat party today. Almost word for word. WORD .....FOR....WORD. So my response to you is what would you think.

Are they doing this on purpose? Well, a look at the replay shows that virtually every principal the Democrats ever said they had they are themselves eggregiously violating today. Theres a picture of Barbara Boxer conducting a "mark up" hearing to a room of empty chairs. They are forcibly preventing Republicans from even hearing let alone participating in the supposed deliberative processs. They have proceeded to violate even Roe V Wade. That so-called sacred "settled law" we always have thrown in our faces. Now how do you interpret forcing such destruction of the haelth acre system given the kangaroo proceess they are conducting.

Economically Obama is in a box because only certain things have ever worked Historically and economically in stimulating job growth and product innovation and hence revenue growth and higher standards of living. You may defend Chavez water rationing and call it wonderful but every where these concepts have been imposed economically they destroy the economy just like there. I say if you declare what you are doing is in fact your PLAN, then yes, they are purposely implementing their plan and hence destroying the economy. Or trying to. Obama and the far left that is the leaders of the Dems today are making a huge huge huge mistake. They will go down in History. If we survive.

THIS article for instance clearly traces the financial melt down to the intervention of the politicians into the markets. yet all we hear is that Capitalism doesnt work not that government doesnt work when it muddles in the economy. By the same people who think that what in fact caused the meltdown is just what we need now.

Now you brought up the term, so ask yourself this question. You know how liberals always bring up a certain phrase "what would jesus do" when they want to demonstrate how Christ was a communist( which he wasnt) in philosophy? Well look at the Democrat Party platform and agenda. If Satan wanted to destroy this country what would Satan do?

he would destroy marriage and hence the family (see broken home stats)
he would destroy belief in God and cause man to think he was god (Pride goeth befoe the fall)
he would destroy the standing of parents and insert the State. (it takes a village where did I hear that....)
he would subordinate the individual and his rights (unalienable in the Constitution) to the will of the State (see the health care debate and the nanny state)
he would destroy the moral paradigm that included chastity and modesty (see modern media and forced libertine accomodation)
he would foment division and balkanisation amongst peoples (see group identity politics)
he would destroy all the traditional societal institutions that worked to maintain the fabric of civilization (hook every one up only to the State)

And he would do it with precisely the tactics that this administration and this party have (Alynski/Marx/Lenin) and are using ongoing. Right down to the indoctrination in schools.

But dont take my word for it. Take theirs.

Communist GoalsReprinted from NewsMax.com

Communist Goals

Chuck Morse

Friday, May 9, 2003

On Jan. 10, 1963, Congressman Albert S. Herlong Jr. of Florida read a list of 45

Communist goals into the Congressional Record. The list was derived from

researcher Cleon Skousen's book "The Naked Communist." These principles are well

worth revisiting today in order to gain insights into the thinking and

strategies of much of our so-called liberal elite.

1. U.S. should accept coexistence as the only alternative to atomic war.

2. U.S. should be willing to capitulate in preference to engaging in atomic war.

These encapsulate the Kennan Doctrine, which advocated for the "containment" of

communism. Establishment figures supporting the amoral containment policy at

least implicitly worked with the communists in scaring the wits out of the

American people concerning atomic war.

President Ronald Reagan undid the doctrine when he took an aggressive stand

against the Evil Empire by backing freedom fighters from around the world that

were struggling against the left-wing communist jackboot. As a result, the

Soviet Union and its satellites imploded, a considerable and unexpected setback

to the international communist edifice.

3. Develop the illusion that total disarmament by the U.S. would be a

demonstration of "moral strength."

The nuclear freeze advocates supported a freeze on American nuclear development

only. Rarely were Soviet nukes or those of other nations mentioned in their

self-righteous tirades. The same advocates now call for reducing American

military might, claiming that there is something immoral about America

preserving its military pre-eminence in the world.

4. Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation and

regardless of whether or not items could be used for war.

Today, there are calls to end the embargo on the slave island of Cuba, there

were complaints about the embargo against Iraq, and the U.S., not Saddam

Hussein, was blamed for the suffering of the Iraqi people. Would they have

advocated for free trade with Hitler and his National Socialist regime?

5. Extend long-term loans to Russia and Soviet satellites.

6. Provide American aid to all nations regardless of Communist domination.

Without the aid and trade, the left-wing international communist behemoth would have imploded on

its own rot a lot sooner and umpteen millions would have been saved from

poverty, misery, starvation and death.

7. Grant recognition of Red China and admission of Red China to the U.N.

8. Set up East and West Germany as separate states in spite of Khrushchev's

promise in 1955 to settle the Germany question by free elections under

supervision of the U.N.

9. Prolong the conferences to ban atomic tests because the U.S. has agreed to

suspend tests as long as negotiations are in progress.

10. Allow all Soviet satellites individual representation in the U.N.

11. Promote the U.N. as the only hope for mankind. If its charter is rewritten,

demand that it be set up as a one-world government with its own independent

armed forces.

There are still American intellectuals, and elected members of Congress, who

dream of an eventual one world government and who view the U.N., founded by

communists such as Alger Hiss, the first secretary-general, as the instrument to

bring this about.

12. Resist any attempt to outlaw the Communist Party.

13. Do away with loyalty oaths.

14. Continue giving Russia access to the U.S. Patent Office.

While the idea of banning any political party runs contrary to notions of

American freedom and liberty, notions that are the exact opposite of those held

by the left-wing communists themselves, nevertheless these goals sought to

undermine the constitutional obligation of Congress to investigate subversion.

The weakening of our government's ability to conduct such investigations led to

the attack of 9/11.

It is entirely proper and appropriate for our government to expect employees,

paid by the American taxpayer, to take an oath of loyalty.

15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the U.S.

In his book "Reagan's War," Peter Schweizer demonstrates the astonishing degree

to which communists and communist sympathizers have penetrated the Democratic

Party. In his book, Schweizer writes about the presidential election of 1979.

16. Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions,

by claiming their activities violate civil rights.

This strategy goes back to the founding of the American Civil Liberties Union by

Fabian Socialists Roger Baldwin and John Dewey and Communists William Z. Foster

and Elizabeth Gurley Flynn among others.

17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for Socialism and

current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers

associations. Put the party line in textbooks.

18. Gain control of all student newspapers.

19. Use student riots to foment public protests against programs or

organizations that are under Communist attack.

20. Infiltrate the press. Get control of book review assignments, editorial

writing, policy-making positions.

21. Gain control of key positions in radio, TV & motion pictures.

22. Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all form of artistic

expression. An American Communist cell was told to "eliminate all good sculpture

from parks and buildings," substituting shapeless, awkward and meaningless

forms.

23. Control art critics and directors of art museums. " Our plan is to promote

ugliness, repulsive, meaningless art."

24.Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them "censorship" and a

violation of free speech and free press.

25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and

obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio and TV.

26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural and

healthy."

This is the Gramscian agenda of the "long march through the institutions"

spelled out explicitly: gradual takeover of the "means of communication" and

then using those vehicles to debauch the culture and weaken the will of the

individual to resist.

Today those few who still have the courage to advocate public morality are

denounced and viciously attacked. Most Americans are entirely unwitting

regarding the motives behind this agenda.

27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social"

religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity,

which does not need a "religious crutch."

This has been largely accomplished through the communist infiltration of the

National Council of Churches, Conservative and Reform Judaism, and the Catholic

seminaries.

28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the

grounds that it violates the principle of "separation of church and state"

Replacing belief in the creator with belief in the earthly man-controlled State.

29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old fashioned,

out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a

worldwide basis.

And replace our nation of "laws, not men" with royal decree emanating from

appointed judges and executive orders. Replace elected officials with

bureaucrats.

30. Discredit the American founding fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats

who had no concern for the "common man."

31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of

American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of "the big

picture." Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over.

Obliterating the American past, with its antecedents in principles of freedom,

liberty and private ownership is a major goal of the communists then and now.

32. Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of

the culture - education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health

clinics, etc.Public ownership of the means of production, the core principle of

totalitarianism.

33. Eliminate all laws or procedures which interfere with the operation of the

Communist apparatus.

34. Eliminate the House Committee on Un-American Activities.

35. Discredit and eventually dismantle the FBI.

36. Infiltrate and gain control of more unions.

37. Infiltrate and gain control of big business.

Turn America into a socialist police state.

38. Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies.

Treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but

psychiatrists can understand or treat.

The Soviets used to send "social misfits" and those deemed politically incorrect

to massive mental institutions called gulags. The Red Chinese call them lao gai.

Hitler called them concentration camps.

39. Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of

gaining coercive control over those who oppose communist goals.

Psychiatry remains a bulwark of the communist agenda of fostering self-criticism

and docility.

40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy

divorce.

Done! The sovereign family is the single most powerful obstacle to authoritarian

control.

41. Emphasize the need to raise children away from the negative influence of

parents. Attribute prejudices, mental blocks and retarding of children to

suppressive influence of parents.

Outcome-based education, values clarification or whatever they're calling it

this year.

42. Create the impression that violence and insurrection are legitimate aspects

of the American tradition; that students and special interest groups should rise

up and make a "united force" to solve economic, political or social problems.

This describes the dialectical fostering of group consciousness and conflict,

which furthers the interests of authoritarianism.

43. Overthrow all colonial governments before native populations are ready for

self-government.

The results of this successful campaign are increasingly obvious in the world

today.

44. Internationalize the Panama Canal.

45. Repeal the Connally Reservation so the U.S. cannot prevent the World Court

from seizing jurisdiction over domestic problems. Give the World Court

jurisdiction over domestic problems. Give the World Court jurisdiction over

nations and individuals alike.

This would mark a complete subversion of our Constitution and an end to

representative sovereign government as we know it, which is the whole idea.

Chuck Morse is a radio talk show host at WROL in Boston

(http://www.chuckmorse.com).